Re-reading The Wheel of Time

[Daryn]

So with "A Memory of Light" the last book in the Wheel of Time series coming out early next year, I thought it'd be a good time to start listening to the entire series again. Surprisingly, I'm finding some details that I had missed the first time though, so that's nice.

I wonder, has anyone else read all 14 of the books so far? It's certainly a series that I have greatly enjoyed.

[Rick Canaan]

Yep, I am going through them all again, myself - and enjoying them as much on the second go-round as I did the first!

The Wheel of Time series is the most in depth fantasy series in existence, or so I've happily discovered. If there is another, I would be very grateful to know it, so I can add it to my library alongside the Wheel of Time. It would be excellent to have more books to enjoy, as much as I have enjoyed these.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

> If there is another, I would be very grateful to know it,

Song of Ice and Fire by Grrr Martin is pretty great. That and Gormenghast are prob the only fantasy stories for adults i've enjoyed reading tho, most of the time i dislike magic.

Edit: The Book of the New Sun series is also amazingly brilliantly good imho, technically it's set in the future but not so's you'd notice at first.

Ededitit: Oh god and how could i forget China Miéville?! (Like Neal Stephenson his books often begin strongly but then sorta peter out towards the end, but omg the beginnings...)

[Rick Canaan]

> If there is another, I would be very grateful to know it,

Song of Ice and Fire by Grrr Martin is pretty great. That and Gormenghast are prob the only fantasy stories for adults i've enjoyed reading tho, i hate outright magic.

Edit: The Book of the New Sun series is also amazingly brilliantly good imho, technically it's set in the future but not so's you'd notice at first.

Ededitit: Oh god and how could i forget China Miéville?! (Like Neal Stephenson his books often begin strongly but then sorta peter out towards the end, but omg the beginnings...)

Hmmm! I'll have to give these a look! Thanks for the suggestions, Borg-dog!

[Adonisus]

You'll never get more in depth than Tolkien, Ricky boy.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

(Boo, elves suck and Gandalf's a wanker, etc)

[Rick Canaan]

You'll never get more in depth than Tolkien, Ricky boy.

(Boo, elves suck and Gandalf's a wanker, etc)

I got to go with Borg-dog on this one. I tried getting into the Lord of the Rings three times, and failed to gain any real momentum in reading it each time.

Just doesn't appeal to me. Never has and likely never will.

[Daryn]

Lord of the Rings has a very lofty, airy, mythical feel to it. That's fine if you're into that sort of thing. Wheel of TIme has a much more earthy approach to fantasy. I guess as I grew older my tttaste in fantasy changed. Though I do like the Lord of the Rings movies, I too just couldn't get into the book.

[Rick Canaan]

You'll never get more in depth than Tolkien, Ricky boy.

(Boo, elves suck and Gandalf's a wanker, etc)

Lord of the Rings has a very lofty, airy, mythical feel to it. That's fine if you're into that sort of thing. Wheel of TIme has a much more earthy approach to fantasy. I guess as I grew older my tttaste in fantasy changed. Though I do like the Lord of the Rings movies, I too just couldn't get into the book.

The Wheel of Time has something about it that is in most every story or series I've ever liked: Realism.

Yah yah, how can fantasy have realism in it? A valid question to ask, though, indeed. What I mean, then, is not that the fantasy is realistic, but that the characters, their motivations and the world in which they interact are realistic.

Gritty, down-to-earth men and women ensconced in a world (well, fantasy world perhaps) that is as real as they are. That to me is what makes a story good. You can have all the magic, sorcery and other fantastic stuff you want, but if the people don't respond to it and interact with it for good reasons and in believable ways, then it is not something I am likely to enjoy.

Peter F. Hamilton (science fiction writer) has this in his works, as well, which is why I like his books as much as I do. Different genre, but with the same rules. The people are real, and act on believable motivation.

Reality. Why do people do the things they do? If an author can make me walk in their character's shoes, then I am going to like their story.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

I tend to think of that as being "internally self-consistent" (i.e. lacking in what TVTropes calls fridge logic) rather than "realistic" but yeah same here.

Otoh i also like stuff on the other end of the spectrum where reality's totally out of whack in ways just beyond our comprehension, nothing works as expected and anything can happen. Philip K. Dick was the king of this (edit: rotten link at the end of that article here's the full version), also Robert Anton Wilson and Lovecraft at times, and it's common in comedy like Douglas Adams and Stephen Leacock's stories.

It's just all the stuff in the middle that i have trouble with, where things seem to be rational but really it's all arbitrary, tho usually i just retcon things in my head until they make sense.

[karakris]

Hmmm - Sorry Guys - But I just loved Lord of The Rings
I have read it about fifty times before I saw the Films, which WERE good.
I also have all of the Precursor Material.
The Lord of The Rings just hints at more ancient times - and that it is the most recent stage of an ancient saga. However - Tolkein envisaged this as only a part of a truly Gigantic Epic Tale.

I have read the Silmarillion - which includes several parts, and tells of the very beginning of the creation of the World, Arda - hundreds of thousands of years before.
Arda which was marred and damaged and perverted from its original intent by Melkor, the original Dark Lord - one of the original Gods who created the World and helped to shape it. Melkor who became vain and jealous, and eventually tried to undo and destroy all which the Gods were trying to create.
Eventually he held all of Middle Earth in his sway - with only the Elves to oppose him, for thousands of years. The Gods, the Valar stayed out of this battle on their sacred island far in the West.

Eventually they did come to Middle Earth, and did battle with Melkor, and subdued him. In this War many of the ancient lands were lost, drowned in the seas by the violence of the conflict. Melkor was thrust through "the doors of the night" into the Void, never to return - but much of the Evil he had created remained.
The Evil Balrogs, spirits of fire - who were perverted from some of the Maier ( the lesser gods ) whom Melkor had recruited to his worship. The Orcs which Melkor had made and Bred, in evil imitation of the Elves.
The Dragons or Fire-Drakes, which Melkor had bred in his pits.
But worst of all was the most powerful of the Maier - Suaron, his dark Lieutenant who was only slightly less evil than his Master, and who worshipped him.
Sauron lived on - and "inheritted" much of the power which his Master had given to him - with armies of Orcs.
Now all of this happened long, long ago - tens of thousands of years before the story in The Lord of the Rings, and some of the characters in The Lord of The Rings have their origins in those times. Galadriel was a young woman when the Elves first made open War against the Armies of Melkor.
A stange tale from those ancient dark times was Beren and Luthien - for Beren was the son of one of the ladies of the race of Elves, but his father was a Man. Luthien was the daughter of Thingol of one of the Kings of the Elves, and Melian one of the Maier ( a lesser Goddess ). Their story was a long and sad tale, but eventually after many tribulations Beren and Luthien were married - and although Luthien chose to die as a Mortal, to join Beren - they had a son Dior.
Now Dior had a daughter, Elwing who was the mother of Elrond. So Elrond has been called half-elven, implying that he was half-human. But he was actually one quarter human, and also one quarter a descendent of one of the Maier, his grandmother Melian.
Elves live forever, and Elrond chose to be "judged" as an Ef.
But his brother Elros chose to live as a Mortal Man - the first of the line of Kings of Numenor or "Westernesse" the promised Island far to the West, but not as far West as the sacred kingdom of the Valar.
But Sauron came to the Island of Numenor, and in time perverted the Kings and the people to the worship of his Dark Master, Melkor - and to defy the Ban which the Valar had placed on them, not to attempt to sail to the sacred Kingdom of the Valar.
The punishment meted out to the people of Numenor was dire - the whole island was thrown down into the deeps - in the Akkabelleth or downfalling, and came to be refered to as "Atalante" - the lost, the downfallen.
Sauron escaped with his life, but he was never able to put on his disguised appearance of charm again, he became an evil and grim creature.
Some of the "faithful" amongst the Numenorians also escaped, those who had stayed true to respect for the Valar, and who had not been perverted or decieved by Sauron, those few who had seen through his lies. These people founded the Kinddoms of Gondor in the South and Arnor in the North
Sauron arose again with power, and defeated and destroying the Northern Kingdom of Arnor with his ally, the Witch King of Angmar ( the "iron hells" built by Melkor ), who later became the leader of the Nazgul.
The survivors of Arnor became "rangers" - like the direct ancestor of Aragorn, the rightful King of Arnor, and thus of Gndor.
Then Sauron with armies of Orcs, from his fastness in the mountain ring of Mordor, set forth to destroy the remaining Kingdoms of Men, and the Elves.
The final Alliance of Elves and Men fought Sauron's Armies, under the command of Elendil for Gondor and Gil-Galad for the Elves. Both of these died in that battle, but Sauron's finger was cut off, with his Ring of power. The rest you all know
But - remember the time scale, Elrond was a young man, an Esquire of Gil-Galad - but this all happened nearly three thousand years before the times of Bilbo and Frodo.
Elves live forever, if not slain - and Elrond fathered a daughter Arwen whose mother was Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn.

I have read all of the proper, Published Books of Tolkein
But I have also read the 16 Books, of all of the Notes which Tolkein left on his death, showing how his ideas evolved and developed, his ideas and thought which e never had enough time to fully flesh out.
For Tolkein lived in a time before computers and word processors, when unless you were a good typist, you had to write everything by hand, then rewrite revisions - and so on, over and over.
A lot of what he imagined and thought only exists in the form of the sheets and scraps of notes and sketches, poems and poetic forms, songs even, which were never published during his life.
These have been collected, correlated and annoted in the 16 or more Volumes relating to Middle Earth which have been Published by his Son, Christopher.

Now - my other Fave Fantasy Writer is Michael Moorcock - once again in some of his series of works, there is tremendous breadth and the spanning of vast ages of history, both told and untold or hinted at.

End of Post

[karakris]

I tend to think of that as being "internally self-consistent" (i.e. lacking in what TVTropes calls fridge logic) rather than "realistic" but yeah same here.

Otoh i also like stuff on the other end of the spectrum where reality's totally out of whack in ways just beyond our comprehension, nothing works as expected and anything can happen. Philip K. Dick was the king of this (edit: rotten link at the end of that article here's the full version), also Robert Anton Wilson and Lovecraft at times, and it's common in comedy like Douglas Adams and Stephen Leacock's stories.

It's just all the stuff in the middle that i have trouble with, where things seem to be rational but really it's all arbitrary, tho usually i just retcon things in my head until they make sense.

Was he the fella who wrote the Dorsai! Series - I just loved that series ?

Lovecraft - now you ARE Talking.
Another of my Favourite Authors.
I think the Best were the Novellette "At The Mountains of Madness" and the Story "The Rats In The Walls". Both of these have frightening implications.
Also - in the same vein but a bit less intense was Clark Ashton-Smith.

[Daryn]

Oh, I know there is a lot to Tolkein's world. I tried to get into his work,but maybe I started with the wrong book. Either way, I am not saying that Tolkein or Lord of the Rings is bad. It just doesn't appeal to me. A lot of people love it, and I can see by your description that there is a lot to like, but for me there is such a thing as too epic.

If you've not checked out The Wheel of Time though, try it on for size. It's really quite good.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

> Was he the fella who wrote the Dorsai! Series

Probably not, but hey cool i always wondered where that term came from (it's used for security staffers at furry cons apparently).

> [your post before that]

Please understand i didn't mean any disrespect to Tolkein, it's just that LOTR never grabbed me as something cohesive, just a lot of plodding plot and poems and ooh-aren't-i-clever invented languages / history strung together. Guess you had to be there.

He was deliberately writing a story in a genre (mythology) where stories normally evolve on their own, over time, out in the wild, and it felt like that imho. All artifice. (Plus i found several of the supposedly good guys either unbearably smug or very self-absorbed, as noted above.) Saruman i thought was interesting, also poor Smeagol (i seem to like stories about mad ppl for some reason). Another thing is that Tolkein clearly hated technology, whereas i love it.

Gene Wolfe attempted a similar mythic thing in The Book of the New Sun and succeeded much better i feel, probably because he based it on Classical mythology i already knew of, so it felt more natural by association.

Anyway yes Lovecraft is great, did you not see my reply in the music thread? I *love* At The Mountains of Madness, it's one of my favourite things ever, terrific sense of dread and loneliness.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

I had to drop that series when one of the major characters spent an entire novel in the bath.

There's probably a decent story buried in the torrent of words that makes up the Wheel of Time series.

SPOILER: There isn't. I gave up around six books in, when he might as well have titled most of the books things like:

Braids: The Tuggening
Wool-Headed Men and the Skirt-Smoothing Women Who Love Them
Rand Goes Crazy For Another Couple of Hundred Pages
Character Clothing Descriptions, Volume 1 of 57
Damn, [strikethrough]Robert Jordan[/strikethrough] Rand al'Thor is a Pimp
The Source and its Taint (LOL)

Seems like books 1 - 4 are great, books 7 - 10 are terribly dull, and then book 11 onward is fantastic again, correct?

If so i may well try listening to just the first few.

Also, Daryn, i just remembered about LibriVox which might interest you (basically a volunteer attempt to read aloud all public domain works, like Project Gutenberg for blind ppl. Obviously the reader quality varies hugely, but it can be great for listening to classics that i otherwise can't find audiobooks of.. i've been wanting to read Vril for ages for example, one of the earliest ever works of scifi).

. . .

Heh still reading that mefi thread, i like this comment

Even worse is when a story becomes a diseased zombie feeding on the good work of the original author after death like the Dune series...

..i couldn't believe how badly Herbert's son fucked that one up.. apparently Frank H. had left more than a thousand pages of notes concerning the final Dune novel, Brian could literally have just scanned and published those and i'd've bought and read them...

. . .

Ah, here's just what i wanted, sharp-yet-endearingly-befuddled reviews of the first eleven books.

[Rick Canaan]

Seems like books 1 - 4 are great, books 7 - 10 are terrible, and then book 11 onward is fantastic again, correct?

If so i may well try listening to just the first few.

Yeah, that was pretty much my assessment, too. It was like Robert Jordon got terribly lost in the minutia of his characters and of his world, and completely lost sight of why he was writing the series.

In Jordon's defense though, I will not say that the books are bad; they just... well, don't stray from the point, but never really manage to let you know when they might return to the story's point.

Brandon Sanderson has very much fixed this, though. In taking up the series (at book 11), he has returned the saga to its point, and has brought real direction back to the characters and their world. But on that note, I wouldn't jump over any of the books previous to book 11. There are characters and situations in them that you will want to know about and understand before book 11.

I have heard a lot of people say they wouldn't read the Wheel of Time for the reasons being discussed here. But as valid as these reasons may be, they do not change how incredibly in depth Jordon's world was and how vibrantly alive his characters are. Anyone who refuses to read these books based on the aforementioned assertions, are doing themselves a disservice.

Jordon perhaps got caught up in a bit too much minutia for his own good. But to say his books weren't good because of it, would be doing Jordon's books a dreadful disservice.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

I get the impression that after the first four he was just constantly adding more and more characters and plot threads without ending / resolving any of them, even the ppl who die come back.. one of the things i love so much about Game of Thrones is the "anyone can die, and they often do" thing which really makes the world feel dynamic and keeps readers on their toes.

Also, this comment from the disconcertingly doppelgängerish Trurl (if i ever were to join Metafilter that was the username i was going to pick, and that poster very often says stuff that i would want to say)

The Big Bad has a dozen mini-boss characters with the Forsaken, as well as numerous Darkfriends.

If George R.R. Martin does nothing else for the fantasy genre than move it past the childish idea - as bad in Tolkien as in Jordan - that the forces of evil go around advertising and exulting in their Pure Evilness, he will have done it an immeasurable service.

EDITALSOALSO:

The last (and, presumably, upcoming) volumes from Martin are painfully dull, clumsily plotted padding that he himself says he never planned for.

I respect that people may not like or enjoy Tolkein, but no one could ever accuse the professor of not knowing precisely how the story ended.

QFT

[Daryn]

Oh Jordan certainly knew how his story was going to end. He did not leave that up to Brandon Sanderson to figure out. He had that already plotted out before he died. Brandon is just executing on his wishes.

I see a lot of people bashing WoT evil characters for advertsing their evilness, but it seems obvious to me that none of these people have bothered to actually read the series. To the WoT world at large there is no evil force at work. All the evil dealings tend to happen in the background. The times it does surface to the foreground are for major plot points. I guess it's a divergense in style. Some people just prefer Fantasy novels to be more "realistic".

The thing about the WoT series to me is that it never actually strayed from its point. As I am re-listening to the books I am picking up on things that were mentioned early on that did not seem significant at the time, but turned out to have been subtle foreshadowing that came to a head several books later.

Books 5-8 do have some key points in them, but they get to them through supporting characters rather than main ones. I didn't mind this because I wanted to know more about these characters. For a lot of people though this was a turn off.

[Wolfgang of Borg]

EDIT: Oh um sorry i see my mistake now: that thing about authors not knowing how their serieses are going to end was part of a thread of discussion about George R.R. Martin, not Robert Jordan. My last quote above was misleading, when taken out of context. sorry.

Reading the reviews the sense is not that Jordan didn't know where he was going but that he was willing to take padding to unprecedented extremes while getting there. Or something.

Also that evil doesn't make a big showing in the books is more because Jordan doesn't understand it very well than that he was trying to make his world "realistic".

[Daryn]

I'm now about 3/4 of the way through the 7th book. I must say that this is where the series has started to go astray. There's a lot of small things going on in this book, while the main characters do very little. I'll keep going though, but I can certainly see a lot of elements that could've been improved now that I am going through it a second time.

[Daryn]

Well, the Great Wheel of Time Re-Read Adventure has now come to an end. I started doing that at the end of June and just finished now. That's 14 books in less than 6 months.

I have to say that I got a lot more out of the books this time around than I had the first time. I picked out some more subtle plot points that Jordan had been setting up, but had eluded me before I had any knowledge of the story.

I still think the "Battle of the Sexes" thing he has going on throughout the whole series is dated and annoying, but I can understand how the Aes Sadia would think that way.

On the whole, it's still a great series and worth it.